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emil · Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:35 am Post subject: Altruism, does it exist?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism
keywords: charity, selflessness. What I mean by charity is what's in Danish directly translated as "Nextlove", the foundation of Christianity. Don't make this a religion debate.

Does true altruism even exist? Can man act of no selfishness, purely with the intent of helping another in mind?

Dark Byte · Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:33 pm Post subject:

No, there is always a motive behind it.
e.g: Helping someone in the hopes that it signals to other people to help each other is selfish itself

But even if there is a reason to help other people it doesn't diminish the end result. Better relations and productivity

Geri · Moderator Reputation: 111 Joined: 05 Feb 2010 Posts: 5636

The answer is clearly no. Complete selflessness is not existing, but there are different levels of selfishness of course.

Jorg hi · Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:48 pm Post subject:

HOW is compete selflessness. What if the person is PURE heart. AND wants to help people. And TRULY doesn't care about opinions and cares about the selfness of others more than himself?>???????????(JESUS??

InternetIsSeriousBusiness · Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:07 pm Post subject:

AhMunRa · Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:29 pm Post subject:

-Steering clear of Jesus ftm to stay on topic-

No it doesn't exist and will never exist. Why? We are at our very core still just animals. You can dress a monkey in a suit it's still a monkey. We can build whatever we can imagine, well nearly, but at the end of the day we are still animals. Animals by nature are self serving. Why even if there is plenty of food and you have 2 dogs, 1 dog will eat until it throws up. This is a built in survival mechanism and every living thing that moves on it's own has it.

I have often stopped to help others, even in small ways, jump starting a car, pushing a stalled car clear of traffic. I would like to think it's because it's a way for me to help my fellow man, when in truth if it were me, I would want someone to help.

Even if the reason you want to help is to better the species it's selfishness, the end result is a better outcome for all, and not just the one, but even still the one would benefit.

As for Jesus, I can't answer. Even if he lived his life to spread the word of god, if this brought him the slightest bit of joy in doing so then his motive could be said to be selfish. If it brought him nothing but sorrow and pain, which in the end it did then I would consider it selfless, but I don't think it was entirely selfless. I think his motives may have been a bit more selfish for doing what he did.

Slugsnack · Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:42 pm Post subject:

Geri · Moderator Reputation: 111 Joined: 05 Feb 2010 Posts: 5636

Jorg hi · Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:18 pm Post subject:

OK.

What if I was a retarded imbecile that had parts of its brain removed and its conscious removed. And surprising it somehow had a perfect lucky life in helping people without choice or desire? You guys are forgetting about the Theory of Chance!

I'm sure that will break the arguments of your 'Motivation' speech.

Geri · Moderator Reputation: 111 Joined: 05 Feb 2010 Posts: 5636

AhMunRa · Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:42 pm Post subject:

@Slugsnack, yes I have pets, have owned dogs all my life. No didn't know what leptin was had to look it up.

After having looked up leptin I looked up altruism. Having read the definition I have changed my stance. I think it does exist.

I'm sure we have all heard a story of someone throwing themselves on a grenade to save their squad mates. I think this would count, as there is really no reward in killing yourself to save someone. This actually goes against our natural instinct for survival.

Geri · Moderator Reputation: 111 Joined: 05 Feb 2010 Posts: 5636

hcavolsdsadgadsg · Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:16 am Post subject:

topics of interest:

consequentialism
deontological ethics

then you can branch off into kantian ethics, utilitarianism, and all kinds of good stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics#Modern_ethics

Geri · Moderator Reputation: 111 Joined: 05 Feb 2010 Posts: 5636

My point of view is not only a theoretical point and it should be considered in real life too. The examples that were given here did not reflect any decision's all aspects from all point of view. But to make a clear example of how can be following the emotionanal needs selfish even if You help others, here is my example from at least 2 points of view.
When You help to someone else, You invest time, money or other efforts in it.

Let's assume You have a family with a kid. You donate money or other goods to others just with the pure intent of helping, nothing else. At the end of the month, Your kid is starving because You don't have enough money to feed Him/Her. Now whatever You may think about Yourself, Your kid will probably think like this:
"This idiot has spent our money on those jerks. How can be He so selfish. He is never thinking about His family, doing only what He wants."

Hope this will make it clear what is my point. With the grenade story, if a wife and 5 kids are left behind with the feeling that You have left them "just" to save Your squad and play hero, it is again a questionably selflessness act.

So I think that these should be considered when You are deciding to help or not.

Fantasy · Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:06 am Post subject:

Depends on how far you want to over-analyze an action that appears to be selfless.

If I walk down the street, and pass a coin to a homeless man. Then it's a pretty selfless deed, unless I follow that amount of moneys journey throughout the system, and what opportunities it allows the homeless man to have, which in the end COULD result in something beneficial to myself. But if the act of giving the homeless man a coin, was without intentions to benefit myself, would it then be selfless? Or would it only last untill I (without knowing) got something out of it myself? Or is the joy you get out of helping another selfish ?

Honestly, it's a stupid debate. Personal Opinions on something that doesn't matter, wooh :D