> it was from you saying my ignorance leads me to confusion.
because you were plainly confused and the motivation for such is your ignorance. God is separate from His creation.
This may be so, but I don't feel as though you are "in the know" of anything, and I don't see you as being less confused than me, just more sure of what someone else has thought about it all, which I think is unwise, but to each their own.
> I think ignorance comes from believing firmly in any religion,
yet in the case that the religion is truth, you still hold that ignorance comes from truth? interesting.
If it can be proven to be true, then no, believing firmly in such a religion would not be ignorant, but I see too many reasons for it to be false than to be true, I find this to be true of all religions.
>> I realize now though, you by other majorities, you may have just meant the other Abrahamic religions though.
>yeah because the other notions of god are silly and have nothing to stand on. it tends like this in monotheism. islam is the oldest religion. you told me you have thoughts of its founder, tell me, what are these thoughts you have?
And you do have something to stand on? What is it that you stand upon? As for my thoughts on Muhammad, I feel as though there is too much to say about him for this particular discourse, and that you and I would get lost in the details about this subject as to lose the plot of the current discussion, so it's best saved for another thread or as an isolated reply. Also, Islam is not the oldest religion. Zorastrianism, Jainism, Hinduism? You might argue that Islam as in "submission to God" is the oldest religion, but in doing so you are being dishonest, as you know that Islam has a current meaning in our place in history, and it means the religion that was sparked by Muhammad, and is far from the oldest.
>>I get the sense from the way you speak that the God you are talking of in that sense is, in fact, dualistic. There are certainly many other religions that can have God as the creator and still not be dualistic.
>dualism last i checked inches towards shirk in islam. i like dualistic thinking. and nondualistic thinking. different modes of thinking have different benefits. i just do not apply dualism to the creator because it is not my job to apply anything to him, esp. parties created by duality.
This is wise.
>i vaguely agree with you on the vague concept of what preceded this....[block of text I don't want to copy all of to save room on this post]...i am in all beings and all beings are in me.
Okay, thanks for both "demiurge" and "paramatma", they were both concepts I had but didn't have words for. And I agree, you are right in that neither the leaf nor the self is the true "God", but all are a part of that, I am with you here. But I can't know that there is some force behind it all that enables it to be, I can't know that it's not all just random chance and not actually divine in any way. But I will concede that in this context, "god is creation" would not suffice, but by God I am saying the fact that things exist are all that God could be and there's no reason for it at all possibly. There's also the idea that God is just our word for the unknown and he will someday be rendered pointless.
>so, mind is mirror jazz? yeah, you can say it's your physiology that shapes your perception. you can go all solipsist and conclude the most you barely have evidence for is whatever squeaks your grey matter together. another way i enjoyed looking at this was simply that consciousness creates matter, matter creates consciousness; consciousness is fundamentally the same as matter. maybe it's not the best conclusion, but i might can dig up more on this topic if you put a bit in my mouth (and said you were interested)
I am arguing that this is also possible. All we can truly "know" is self, but where is the self rooted? What gives rise to "self" other than everything that is not self?
>>You keep popping up telling me I am wrong because you know this and that about this and that, but I have no reason to believe anything is true.
>you don't have to believe anything or have any knowledge to say something that is wrong. a lack of belief does not mean all of your statements have substance, or logically hold.
How can you say something is wrong without knowing what right is?
>you got whooped several times, and then put out a huge ass wall where reading the first few sentences it is blatant how mistaken you are. only a fool would continue wasting their time reading, much less replying when you openly disregard things multiple times. like dood, the contemporary view after the aya was revealed was exactly what you kept saying it isn't. esp. when Allah has told me what comes of that sort of discussion.
My "huge ass wall of text" was me debunking everything you said to the best of my ability and you completely disregarded it and called yourself the "winner".
>My "huge ass wall of text" was me debunking everything you said to the best of my ability and you completely disregarded it and called yourself the "winner".
do you know that in english classes, we were generally taught for our essays that the first sentence, or at least the point of the first paragraph.
i know, it's a rude and dickish thing to do, but bud, im not gonna be insisting that, when the meaning was agreed upon in the 7th century; it really sets the tone when you're shifting away from the formal, universal meaning. like, yeah, you were mislead by translation issues, but i'm not going to be dishonest with you, it's wrong to do so.
so when i catch many glaring things, that really highlight for me the breadth of your knowledge... i would love to really give great explanations and have lengthier discourse but we have a terrible medium, we've both not got the best schedules as i bet we are both mutually busy. i am just not as qualified or as educated as i would like to be either; but i can tell, and so can another forum muslim (otherwise he would've probably enjoyed to stand contrary, but i can't speak for others), when you are mistaken.
and yeah, i feel you are mistaken on Islam, but in this instance i meant factually in your rebuttals.
and thus i felt that stood for the whole of your argument, as thesis statements tend to describe, and wrote it off.
>just more sure of what someone else has thought about it all
what do you mean?
who is this someone else? Muhammad alayhe salaam did not author the Qur'an, i do not know how many times we have to discuss this.
can you offer any evidence of forgery? can you present an individual like Muhammad? can you debunk the dozens of miracles witnessed by hundreds and thousands? even if you discount those... why can you not prepare something like Qur'an? why can no one? how do you suppose someone uneducated and illiterate imagine and compose such a magnificent, beautiful masterpiece of literature... and then completely refuse credit for its authorship???
how do you suppose that its scientific statements are so accurate? you never addressed this. professors, learned scholars have: their profession that it is from revelation.
we have thousands of people that claim to be prophets. millions over the years since his time. no one has amassed anything even close to Islam. is that not enough to show? maybe not, i guess you could say. but to me, truth stands taller, clearer, than error.
you claimed to have read Qur'an. nothing of Qur'an says to just take what someone else says. this is a sin in islam. you must come to your own way, turn your own heart, use your own reasoning.
>, but I see too many reasons for it to be false than to be true,
can you name them individually? and you see absolutely no truth in Islam? do you really believe that The Creator would create something so beautiful and yet allow corruption in His name? do you really think that Muhammad alayhe salaam with his reputation as trustworthy before prophethood, would be such a liar? what on earth would his motive have possibly been?
and how do you propose he make such statements so accurately? ad hoc? that does not work with prophesy. do you not believe in prophesy? that God would communicate with us? that He would want to know us, and us to know Him? I see that God wants to build us up and empower us, The Prophet taught us that and told us the best way to God and to this goal is through brotherly love; through aid, kinship, charity.
Islam is defined as submission to Allah. Yes, there is the more specific Islam, the full revelation, but Allah makes it clear in Qur'an that you do not need to be anything near a full Muslim to come to paradise, be in His court, and benefit His mercy.
But simply, that is ALL that Islam is. Submission to Allah. All whom say, "We Hear, and We Obey".
Adam is the founder of Islam. Not Muhammad. Muhammad is just whom Islam was made complete in revelation to. Adam is still the founder. So again, you show you are in error of your knowledge of Islam.
>And you do have something to stand on? What is it that you stand upon?
Sunnah and Qur'an. Which is accepted world over by millions as (Qur'an) the word of Allah, verbatim, and has been untouched since it was completed. You can gather every single page of Qur'an from the face of the earth and internet, destroy it. it would not even take a day to return, is that not miraculous? how many other books can you say of this?
>Also, Islam is not the oldest religion.
Yes, it is. there is no logical way for any religion to be older than submission to the creator. and by Allah's word this is true. not just, but the first to set foot was a muslim, and a prophet!
>Zorastrianism, Jainism, Hinduism?
Ah yes, again you show your cards. You are bereft of knowledge of Islam and again you show so.
The scriptures of these religions are /heavily/ in line with Islam. if you want to take my word for it i would appreciate it, but i also encourage you to research it... i really don't want to prove it though, but i will explain why i say that if you mean (shortly, they are all monotheistic)
it is also thought by some that zoroaster was a prophet of islam. especially since it teaches so many of the same truths.
the scriptures of these religions also...
...
... heavily accurately prophesy Muhammad salah Allahu alayhe wa salaam! alhamdulillah for you to bring this to the surface! this is widely known and accepted.
i may have mentioned in this thread or another that Allah sent messengers to ALL peoples. there was NEVER a peoples without a clear warner.
that is why these monotheistic religions are so in line. that is why you have my standing: they are not in contrary, and dismissing all of the scripture is potentially dismissing a revelation of Allah.
however, Qur'an has all of the prior revelations contained. no more than it is necessary.
>, as you know that Islam has a current meaning in our place in history,
does it? because if you ask any muslim they will say that islam is the oldest religion, it is simply submission to the will of God, and that the founder is not Muhammad, but the prophet of whom the Book was revealed: they will say the founder is Adam, alayhe salaam.
[2:30] And when thy Lord said to the angels, "I am about to place a vicegerent in the earth,"...
vicegerent: an administrative deputy of a king or magistrate
administration: the process or activity of running a business, organization, etc.
founder: one who establishes
given that establishing is an activity of running a business, and that is what Adam did... he would be the first Muslim and therefore founder.
you could argue he didn't really have much of a religion though. it was just submission to God. Abraham was the one who really gave the foundation itself of worship. so you could also argue Abraham alayhe salaam. but it is wrong to say Muhammad, alayhe salaam.
> But I can't know that there is some force behind it
yes, you can. you should try making a sincere prayer to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Testing God isn't a thing but in a lot of cases if you sincerely ask, really ask, you'll be surprised. obviously, ask for guidance, toward truth and knowledge. not for the roof and sky to part. every step you take towards Allah, He takes two steps towards you.
I really hope you're open minded enough to say, maybe you're wrong, maybe it's not me who is right, but that the truth is indeed Islam. If you say you're up for it, I'll make sincere dua'a for you to be exalted in ranks and knowledge and to be brought closer to Allah.
> by God I am saying the fact that things exist are all that God could be and there's no reason for it at all possibly.
I would concur that there is no obvious reason for it, brother, however just... everything!! everything is awesome. everything is beautiful. everything is incredible. it is beyond comprehension. yes, there are shitty scenarios, but THIS, all that there is... that alone is proof enough to me that Allah is real and is with me always, that He can be none other than The Most Compassionate!
and so, i must be here for that. to show my reverence and awe for Him, and all that He does. and I swear not to assign or associate anything with Him;
Allah is He who is independent of all beings, of all circumstances. Allah is One. He begets not, nor is He begotten. There is none like Him.
i would say it, however, as that all that there is, is of God; the reason for all things.
[18:98-110] He said, "This is a mercy from my Lord; but when the promise of my Lord comes, He will make it level, and ever is the promise of my Lord true."
And on that day we shall let some of them surge against others, and the Trumpet will be blown. Then We shall gather them together in one gathering.
On that day we shall present hell to the disbelievers, plain to view,
Those whose eyes were hoodwinked from My reminder, and who could not bear to hear.
Do the disbelievers reckon that they can choose My bondmen as protecting friends beside Me? Lo! We have prepared hell as a welcome for the disbelievers.
Say: "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?-
Those whose effort goeth astray in the life of the world, and yet they reckon that they do good work."
Those are they who disbelieve in the revelations of their Lord and in the meeting with Him. Therefor their works are vain, and on the Day of Resurrection We assign no weight to them.
That is their reward: hell, because they disbelieved, and made a jest of Our revelations and Our messengers.
Lo! those who believe and do good works, theirs are the Gardens of Paradise for welcome,
Wherein they will abide, with no desire to be removed from thence.
Say: "If the sea were ink for [writing] the words of my Lord, the sea would be exhausted before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even if We brought the like of it as a supplement."
Say: "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your god is one God, Allah. And whoever hopeth for the meeting with his Lord, let him do righteous work, and make none sharer of the worship due unto his Lord.
one of the reasonings for being here, beyond reverence of Allah's awe and beauty, is to test us: to give us opportunity for actions; lives to live, and to be held accountable for.
and our actions are held accountable for, justly, fairly. Allah is Merciful, Forgiving.
> All we can truly "know" is self, but where is the self rooted?
go buy upanishads but please read those after reading qur'an again lol
>How can you say something is wrong without knowing what right is?
i feel like this question is loaded and unsound. "how can you say x without knowing what is -x".
well, i don't really have to know the opposite of something to be aware of the qualities of something.
and the only real way for you to understand many of the qualities of religion is through the language of belief, and so to refute a religion without the proper understanding to fully comprehend it...? i don't think you can really touch on the subject as having given it a fair critical analysis. does that make sense to you?
i am not saying that you are wrong because you don't believe and you have to believe to be wrong (that would not make sense, and i also have no idea how much you know, but it seems to me i find you are misinformed on some subjects), but I am sure you understand that you do not think like a Muslim, you do not feel emotionally as a Muslim does; similarly, to fully venture a religion is through belief. otherwise, you won't have true understanding, so how can you make a true assessment?
like, you may know the commandments, maybe the theory behind it, but being a talking muslim is different than a walking muslim, you see?
so yeah, i really don't think -- even setting aside the faith part, because i understand that is a leap you can't just opt to try, it has to come with sincerity -- you have given a fair chance to Islam. i'd love for you to give me what overwhelms you with the weight of falseness, because with 1400 years worth i've yet to find criticisms that really stand... neither have the other billions of muslims throughout the years.
and if you are really open, and sincere, God DOES appreciate a skeptic... He made you that way for a reason. Your intellect is a tool. food for thought, i guess.
@ani,
the first thing you start off is an argument from silence. if you're going to make /any/ claim, then you need evidence. i have mind. you have none that it is fictional. except proof by assertion.
>I don't have to prove I am innocent
it sure looks better if you do though.
>because there is no evidence I am guilty of anything.
this is a false analogy to begin with
tl;dr: you basically offered nothing of substance and blatantly ignored a large amount of evidence. the most you did was strawman the curvature of the earth; the information in Qur'an did not and could not have come from other sources, there is knowledge in there entirely impossible to have ascertained at that time period without divine revelation.
so you are doing a large discount.
>I'm saying he should appear to the world as a whole.
okay, and it is already explained well why that is not done. so thanks for ignoring that too?
>This is exactly the same as someone telling me "if you don't behave you won't get any presents from Santa this year".
no, it isn't. it's the same as telling you that asking your mom for a maternity test would be offensive.
>What a flawed system. And what a bunch of deluded people in charge.
AND HERE WE HAVE THE SOURCE OF YOUR CRITICISMS!
You suppose you know better than The Almighty.
You also dismiss a system you show that you do not understand.
>If Allah came down to earth, and started creating new forms of life on the spot out of thin air
hellooooo Adam, genesis, etc.??
plus you're showing the extent of your knowledge of eschatology to propose such a thing, and show that you completely miss the point that that eliminates.
>That or a ridiculous display of power (manipulate gravity).
okay, so, if you actually pay attention to these last two, you'd realise that you completely dodged the question and avoided the issue: that even if those things occurred, what logical reason would you have for believing those events when they are no less extraordinary than daily occurrences?
Last edited by finnegan waking up on Sat May 14, 2016 1:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
I just made a quick video of me talking in response to you. Would you like to view it? By the way you calling me an asshole when you know full well I know what you've done to some young girls over the years is laughable. You know what you've done to people.
EDIT:
Here ya go Link
The fact that you made a 25 minute video addressed to the person who will never watch it shows exactly how full of yourself you are when you consider that I'm supposed to be on your block list.
I am going to make this very clear for you, since something seems very wrong with your judgment today mr. tu quoque.
I said I know Allah is the One and true, only God.
I know He has made Himself evident. I know He has given ample signs.
I know there has never been a challenge met by you or the likes of you with anything other than violence.
I never claimed to be in 100% knowledge. I stated, reiterated, the All-Knowing is a title that belongs to Allah.
You were never clear enough in any of your verbiage to do anything other than distort the conversation, insert words, and your own meaning: to give your own perspective and serve your own purpose.
I hope you don't think these happen to be statements that cannot coincide;
I know there is no deity save Allah. I know Allah is All-Knowing.
Not once can you quote, directly, where it is that I stated I was 100% knowing. I stated all Muslims are not 100% knowing.
Like, this is so simple, and so plainly stated. It is actually perplexing and frightening how you must view the world if you are this far removed from something.
My exact words:
"This I Know."
It obviously indicates an article that I acknowledge.
Your exact words:
"now you say only Allah knows"
Which is obviously a straw man. Because it is a quote out of context.
As my exact words were:
"only Allah 100% knows"
Ascribing the article of omniscience as exclusivity as an attribute.
Which can stand completely aside what I said with "This I Know [shahadah]."
You have proved OP so right. Atheism is dishonest. And as an Atheist, you show yourself to be dishonest. Just one example from this topic was that you included with a wall of text "this is a waste of my time" and then... to someone who is supposed to be on your ignore list... Followed with an A 25 minute video!!!! When you are this far in left field!!!! Dude.
I will reply to you soon Justin, haven't read but love ya bud, really appreciate the civility and discussion we've had.
To be fair dude it's a lot less effort to just talk out loud than type shit out imo so the length of the video doesn't really imply that it took so much effort. You're right about the bit where I said it was a waste of my time and then responded, I'm just stupid enough to keep wasting my time it seems.
EDIT:
It's weird how you jump back and forth between insulting HackOtaku and saying you love him also.
I just made a quick video of me talking in response to you. Would you like to view it? By the way you calling me an asshole when you know full well I know what you've done to some young girls over the years is laughable. You know what you've done to people.
EDIT:
Here ya go Link
The fact that you made a 25 minute video addressed to the person who will never watch it shows exactly how full of yourself you are when you consider that I'm supposed to be on your block list.
I am going to make this very clear for you, since something seems very wrong with your judgment today mr. tu quoque.
I said I know Allah is the One and true, only God.
I know He has made Himself evident. I know He has given ample signs.
I know there has never been a challenge met by you or the likes of you with anything other than violence.
I never claimed to be in 100% knowledge. I stated, reiterated, the All-Knowing is a title that belongs to Allah.
You were never clear enough in any of your verbiage to do anything other than distort the conversation, insert words, and your own meaning: to give your own perspective and serve your own purpose.
I hope you don't think these happen to be statements that cannot coincide;
I know there is no deity save Allah. I know Allah is All-Knowing.
Not once can you quote, directly, where it is that I stated I was 100% knowing. I stated all Muslims are not 100% knowing.
Like, this is so simple, and so plainly stated. It is actually perplexing and frightening how you must view the world if you are this far removed from something.
My exact words:
"This I Know."
It obviously indicates an article that I acknowledge.
Your exact words:
"now you say only Allah knows"
Which is obviously a straw man. Because it is a quote out of context.
As my exact words were:
"only Allah 100% knows"
Ascribing the article of omniscience as exclusivity as an attribute.
Which can stand completely aside what I said with "This I Know [shahadah]."
You have proved OP so right. Atheism is dishonest. And as an Atheist, you show yourself to be dishonest. Just one example from this topic was that you included with a wall of text "this is a waste of my time" and then... to someone who is supposed to be on your ignore list... Followed with an A 25 minute video!!!! When you are this far in left field!!!! Dude.
I will reply to you soon Justin, haven't read but love ya bud, really appreciate the civility and discussion we've had.
To be fair dude it's a lot less effort to just talk out loud than type shit out imo so the length of the video doesn't really imply that it took so much effort. You're right about the bit where I said it was a waste of my time and then responded, I'm just stupid enough to keep wasting my time it seems.
EDIT:
It's weird how you jump back and forth between insulting HackOtaku and saying you love him also.
If it's a lot less effort then it sure did take me a lot less time. For example, the first minute of your video can be completely addressed by the fact that I'm replying to you with a post.
You were already #wrekt when it was shown by your standards you have low reading comprehension and delusion due to partiality and anger issues, derived from your arrogance. Your attitude and violent behaviour is completely unjustified. It is obvious projection. Which is why you try to instigate more conflict and disrupt conversation between otsku and I. And you also prove that you don't respond to any valid points, you avoid the issues.
------- ------- ------- ------- -------
All the Praise is for ALLAH, who is the author of all existence and the Most Generous to HIS creation, while HE is also the All-Compelling.
HE is the Only One worthy of our worship having no partners, no associates, no sons, no daughters and no one whom HE must consult and no one or anything which has any comparison with HIM.
All the Praise is for ALLAH, who is the King of all who claim Sovereignty, the Only One who has the right to legislate for HIS creatures.
HE is the Giver of Life and the Causer of Death, while death has no effect upon HIM because HE is the Ever-Living, the Self-Subsisting, the Eternal and the Only Absolute.
All the Praise is for ALLAH who has power over all things, and there is in reality – no power, no influence to cause benefit or detriment except HE.
It is HE, who Created this complex world, the seen and the unseen, the evident and the speculative, the earth and all that is on it and in it.
It is HE who Created the Heavens that are near and far, the atmosphere and the hemisphere, the stratosphere and the outer space of stars, planets and galaxies.
It is HE, who Created all of this in detail and diversity, in a systematic way that scientific laws can be deduced from it, yet so expansive and profound, that science is unable to accurately measure it.
It is HE who Created and Determined all at once, with no pause between HIS word “Be” and it is! The Heavens, the Earth, the angels, the jinn and the men, the beasts, the birds, the insects, the fish in the sea, of every species and kind – all created simply by HIS word.
It is HE, who Created the life and mandated death, in order to see which of HIS creatures that HE has given volition will be the best in their conduct and worship.
It is HE, who sent into this world, at different times and places – Messengers (Peace and Blessings be upon them all) who were gifted with Divine Scriptures and the highest of morals, by which to guide and educate the human beings to a life which is legislated for them and fulfils their very purpose.
It is HE who sent HIS Messengers and Prophets (Peace and Blessings be upon them all) with the common message of strict monotheism, which simply means that there is absolutely no One worthy of Worship or Obedience except the Almighty, the One, the Absolute and who has no partners.
It is HE, who gave the human beings intellect, culture, civilisation, temporary power and passing pleasures and possessions. Yet, HE has subjected all who are on this playing field called life – with death, a fact which humbles the arrogant, the wealthy, the rebellious, the disbeliever, the doubter, the ungrateful, the corrupt, the ignorant, and the deviant – without exception.
It is this fact, that we need to ponder upon in order to reconcile truth from falsehood, right from wrong, the true vision from the apparent mirage of life.
Talix Is in a legitimate state of denial of reality, we can all see it, why even bother. We know this
Citation needed for claims of denial, or that there is any impartial witness to your claims. You have never met any challenges or actually answered any questions posed to you. Not you, not Connor, not anyone. Which is why you have to blatantly misrepresent statements, insert your own words and agenda, and never actually give an honest, sincere, critical refutation: just violence, and true, textbook denial and willful-ignorance.
It is so obvious to see the delusion falls upon you when being so far removed from reality, you can not comprehend plain English.
Even if it is your own words, you still show you lack understanding.
Talix, I love you man but you're really making me dislike your religion.
Is it his defense of Islamism(which you have to support if you're a firm believer of the quran like Talix is)? or his dedicated denial of factual reality?
HackOtaku I posted the 500000th topic Reputation: 81
Joined: 31 May 2007 Posts: 228
Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 8:27 pm Post subject:
Caution: Fucking huge wall of text.
Okay, on the topic of you writing off all of the points I made in the previous thread. You argue that I misunderstand everything and that I'm so misunderstood to the point of it not being worth your time to disprove. (Not your exact words, but it is how I've understood your context.) For starters, on the whole heliocentric model of the world, the 7th centure muslim scholars did not debunk this. Later on down the line, when heliocentricism started becoming commonplace, then Muslim scholars had to reinterpret what was meant so it falls in line with science. Right here is where my issue is anytime you argue that your scholars have agreed upon the meaning of this and that. It is their job to prove the Qu'ran correct, if it is incorrect, they will find a way to infer different meanings so that it becomes true. Given that Arabic is in itself almost a poetic language, it is very easy to reinterpret certain things. (Just so, you can also argue it's very easy to misinterpret it, and you would also be correct.) But the basis of your correctness of the qu'ran comes from people who live to make it seem more correct. Heliocentricism was just one of the points I made, but all the same, you writing it off just because you think I have misinterpreted it all does nothing, because I could argue that you misinterpret it, in which you'd say you didn't because the scholars agree on a different meaning, to which I would again bring up that it is their purpose to reinterpret and we will go in circles. This being so, our previous thread is largely irrelevant, but I am still a little salty that you disregarded the whole thing because I thought we'd be able to have a serious discussion on the sciences in the book, which is something I take issue with, but for now we'll leave that thread in the past. (But feel free to try and tackle those issues at any time in that thread and I'll reply.)
Quote:
who is this someone else? Muhammad alayhe salaam did not author the Qur'an, i do not know how many times we have to discuss this.
can you offer any evidence of forgery? can you present an individual like Muhammad? can you debunk the dozens of miracles witnessed by hundreds and thousands? even if you discount those... why can you not prepare something like Qur'an? why can no one? how do you suppose someone uneducated and illiterate imagine and compose such a magnificent, beautiful masterpiece of literature... and then completely refuse credit for its authorship???
how do you suppose that its scientific statements are so accurate? you never addressed this. professors, learned scholars have: their profession that it is from revelation.
Could you please, for the sake of this discussion, remember that my perspective is that Muhammad is a man who spoke only his own ideas about the world and was not a messenger from God. I know that you believe that this isn't the case, but it is what I believe, and I honestly get annoyed everytime you say "who is this someone else?" because you are feigning ignorance. You know exactly who and what I mean.
"Evidence of forgery" is a pointless thing to try and prove. It does seem like certain things in the Qu'ran are borrowed from other source, and I think it's just because Muhammad grew up in a time and place where various religions were being preached and that's where he got some ideas from. I don't think he was trying to forge anything.
Individuals like Muhammad: Jesus, Moses. As far as his miracles go, I thought he insisted he was just a messenger and not a miracle worker? In either case, I don't believe in any miracles and attribute the seeing of such things to the ignorance of the time. People were more gullible back then. As far as "why I can't produce anything like the qu'ran", why do you assume this is so? If I really wanted to, I could produce something like the Qu'ran, so could anyone else. You keep bringing up that he was uneducated and illiterate as if this proves something divine about him, but it simply means he could not read or write. People used to preach a lot in his time, and he transmitted all his ideas through word of mouth. This is someone who grew up with nothing to enlighten his mind with other than the spoken word of the people of his time (and he lived in Mecca where people preached a lot.) When I consider this, I think it would be no big chore to emulate these preachers and sound like how he believes God would speak like.
His not claiming ownership makes perfect sense, his entire standpoint was that he was talking from God and not himself, so of course he would claim that he is not saying these things, but God is. After all the common man in that time would think, "who cares what some guy has to say", but if that guy is saying what /GOD/ is saying then it becomes "oh man, maybe I should listen."
As far as the scientific statements, I haven't seen any compelling scientific miracles. You argued about them in the last thread, and I absolutely did address it, and you disregarded it, so we never even fleshed out the whole scientific aspect of it all.
Quote:
can you name them individually? and you see absolutely no truth in Islam? do you really believe that The Creator would create something so beautiful and yet allow corruption in His name? do you really think that Muhammad alayhe salaam with his reputation as trustworthy before prophethood, would be such a liar? what on earth would his motive have possibly been?
and how do you propose he make such statements so accurately? ad hoc? that does not work with prophesy. do you not believe in prophesy? that God would communicate with us? that He would want to know us, and us to know Him? I see that God wants to build us up and empower us, The Prophet taught us that and told us the best way to God and to this goal is through brotherly love; through aid, kinship, charity.
Islam is defined as submission to Allah. Yes, there is the more specific Islam, the full revelation, but Allah makes it clear in Qur'an that you do not need to be anything near a full Muslim to come to paradise, be in His court, and benefit His mercy.
But simply, that is ALL that Islam is. Submission to Allah. All whom say, "We Hear, and We Obey".
Adam is the founder of Islam. Not Muhammad. Muhammad is just whom Islam was made complete in revelation to. Adam is still the founder. So again, you show you are in error of your knowledge of Islam.
A lot of it is the science stuff, the other is the inequality it gives towards women, then other is the allowing of violence against perceived enemies. Now I never said I see no truth in Islam, but I do not think it is the whole truth. I will get to this point later on in a conclusion statement. Do I think he was a liar? No, not at first at least. I think he had some kind of delusion about meeting with his angel and decided it was time to preach what he believed to be the truth. Delusions like there were not uncommon in his time, after all. His motive, I believe, was pure at first, he wanted to spread his concept of the truth. And yes, I do say that he "predicted things accurately" as ad hoc, because as I've already said, it seems like there are many people who find their own way to make what he said true by stretches of the imagination, like the "egg-shaped" Earth. I know you firmly think it means that, but I've already shown you my reason why I disbelieve this, and you'll have a very difficult time convincing me that he meant "egg-shaped". This is just an example though of the lengths some people will go to in order to make this book "true" and because they do this, I don't believe in the "accuracy" of certain things I hear.
And no, I don't believe in prophecy in terms of anyone being a prophet and receiving words to speak through God. I feel if there is a God, he does speak to all of us, but would not make any of us his messenger responsible for spreading his faith in the world, instead he would guide us towards the truth himself. I also don't see why God didn't have any messengers in North America. If he was the all knowing and all caring, he should have sent messengers saying similar things to the North American tribes, but there's no indication of this at all. The concepts of brotherly love, aid, kinship, and clarity are definitely true in regards to what they believed, but these concepts predate Islam. (and by Islam, I mean Muhammad's Islam.)
Also, just saying this line annoyed me: | So again, you show you are in error of your knowledge of Islam. | It's like, come on, I even said that I understand that Islam means submission to God, and I understand that it comes before the Islam of the modern world, but I go on to say that there is a current concept when we say "Islam" and that it's Muhammad's religion. I say that I know and understand this and tell you that I am talking about his religion, and you turn around and tell me the same thing I told you, followed with telling me I didn't understand.
Quote:
Sunnah and Qur'an. Which is accepted world over by millions as (Qur'an) the word of Allah, verbatim, and has been untouched since it was completed. You can gather every single page of Qur'an from the face of the earth and internet, destroy it. it would not even take a day to return, is that not miraculous? how many other books can you say of this?
That's a bold and untestable claim, so I choose to disregard it.
>>Also, Islam is not the oldest religion. >Yes, it is. there is no logical way for any religion to be older than submission to the creator. and by Allah's word this is true. not just, but the first to set foot was a muslim, and a prophet!
Again, you're taking a different meaning of Islam than I am in order to make a point. You could say I am doing the same to you, but when you talk about Islam, you merge Muhammad's Islam with the ancient idea of submission to a higher power. And yes, Muhammad's Islam is the same as that, but it's not the exact same. That's like saying Christianity is the oldest religion, because Christianity is also the submission to God, or "Islam". You are taking the definition of the word to mean the thing we are talking about, and it's creating this level of confusion. For sake of ease of conversation, anytime I talk about "Islam", I am talking specifically about Muhammad's Islam, and not the idea of submitting to a higher power.
As far as other religions being in line with Islam, you've got it completely backwards from my perspective. Islam is in line with these old religions, not the other way around, and that's because those religious preachers were preaching these religions around Muhammad.
Quote:
does it? because if you ask any muslim they will say that islam is the oldest religion, it is simply submission to the will of God, and that the founder is not Muhammad, but the prophet of whom the Book was revealed: they will say the founder is Adam, alayhe salaam.
Right, and any nonmuslim will say that Islam came after x and y religion. To an outsider, Islam is the religion that was taught by Muhammad, and Muhammad teaches that it's the same as the one taught to "Adam", and through the transitive property, they will argue that Islam must be the oldest religion because it's the same religion as "the first man", but from where do they gather the idea that this is true? From Muhammad's Qu'ran.
Quote:
> But I can't know that there is some force behind it
yes, you can. you should try making a sincere prayer to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Testing God isn't a thing but in a lot of cases if you sincerely ask, really ask, you'll be surprised. obviously, ask for guidance, toward truth and knowledge. not for the roof and sky to part. every step you take towards Allah, He takes two steps towards you.
I really hope you're open minded enough to say, maybe you're wrong, maybe it's not me who is right, but that the truth is indeed Islam. If you say you're up for it, I'll make sincere dua'a for you to be exalted in ranks and knowledge and to be brought closer to Allah.
I've already said that I could be wrong. Again, my axiom is that I truly know nothing. "Islam" being the truth might be correct, but not Muhammad's Islam. Submission to the higher power, if there is one, might be correct, but I am too firmly against certain quranic concepts, especially the inequality towards women. I will pray to test "God" yet again though, though I have been unsuccessful in the past, I am open to experimentation.
Quote:
I would concur that there is no obvious reason for it, brother, however just... everything!! everything is awesome. everything is beautiful. everything is incredible. it is beyond comprehension. yes, there are shitty scenarios, but THIS, all that there is... that alone is proof enough to me that Allah is real and is with me always, that He can be none other than The Most Compassionate!
This I will meet you halfway on. That there is no obvious point makes sense to me, and my own philosophy is that life is there for the sheer sake of being experienced.
As far as the passage (which I did not quote) goes, there's another place I take issue with. Muhammad's Islam talks a lot about hell for the unbelievers, and a day of judgement, and both of these concepts go fundamentally against towards what I believe of the world. I don't believe God would make a place of torment for non-believers to go to, all I see when I read this is an attempt at fear. Any religion that uses threats of hell I start to become skeptical of. I could understand if he was arguing that "hell" is a mindset of unhappiness and uncertainty that comes from a lack of belief in him and that it's experienced while you're alive, but the qu'ran definitely seems to have a concept of a hell for you after you die if you are an unbeliever, and in that I see error.
Upanishads I will check out sometime, because I am interested in Hinduism as well. I might check out the Qu'ran again, but it is annoyingly repetitive for me.
Quote:
so yeah, i really don't think -- even setting aside the faith part, because i understand that is a leap you can't just opt to try, it has to come with sincerity -- you have given a fair chance to Islam. i'd love for you to give me what overwhelms you with the weight of falseness, because with 1400 years worth i've yet to find criticisms that really stand... neither have the other billions of muslims throughout the years.
It's the life of Muhammad. I don't know how you're going to convince me that he didn't do the things that a lot of historical sources assert. He has done some things that, to me, seem terrible and far removed from divinity. Here's what I think about Muhammad, and my issues with his Islam:
I think Muhammad, because he was a deeply spiritual man who was raised in a very religious place and meditated a lot had some understand of "God", if there even was such a thing. He had a good sense of the idea of what moved things forward due to his own perceptions and thoughts on the world as well as all of the religions he was exposed to. I believe he started preaching his messages after he had a delusional episode in which he believed an angel told him to deliver God's message. I believe that when he started he wanted to guide people to what he believed was salvation. He preached about good concepts, kinship, charity, things of that sort that were not new to religion by any means.
However, as time went on, as he was persecuted from Mecca for shaming the things other's were worshiping, he slowly lost the path of being purely religious and become more militant. He slowly became corrupted by the power he had amassed by preaching his religion. The caravan raids, the genocide, the various tortures, pedophilia, allowing violence against those of other faith's. Now it may sound like I'm closing the book by saying it doesn't matter what you say to be in regards to his life for these things, and that there was a good reason he did it or that some things were lies, because there is quite a large number of things that cast him in a bad light, and I can't believe that they're all lies or incorrect.
The spread of Islam happened very quickly due to the militant nature of the religion. There's a chance that his followers all misunderstood his message and that their extensive attacks were all misguided, but it seems unlikely that so many people would misunderstand such a thing to that much of an extreme. Also, because of the extreme nature of Muslim culture, because of all the violence, a large number of people had no choice but to submit or die. Because of this fact, I am not impressed by the size of Muslim faith at the moment, because it was fueled by fear and war. It doesn't seem to me like these people misunderstood the Qu'ran though, it just seems like they are following the actions that their prophet did later on in his life.
So right there is the crux of the issue, Muhammad used his religious following to claim power, all under the guise that it was God's holy command. This might not have been his intention from the start, but it is what became of him as time went on. Because of his life, I can't ever believe in him as being a spiritual standard for life. Because of the scientific inaccuracies (whether or not you seem them as being so is neither here nor there) in the Qu'ran, I can not bring myself to believe it is the infallible word of God. If God has truly chosen one messenger as the purest and more divine being, he wouldn't have allowed him to live in the way that he did. Instead, I think Muhammad had an understanding towards "God" that we all have within us, a sort of intuition about it all, and that if we nurture it, we can get closer to that understanding, but his understanding is not the whole truth, and there are too many bad things he has done for him to be a pure soul to me.
I just see the Qu'ran as a philosophical text that is a collection of thoughts that Muhammad himself had, no greater power, no God, just him, and he was not the best person, so it's important not to believe too heavily in the things that are written, because there's no evidence that it is God's actual word, and I feel as though if God existed he would have chosen someone whose life would not include all these things.
And the reason I am bothering to write all this is because when you were into Hinduism, I was into buddhism, and I thought we were both working towards concepts of truth in this world, and now that you've converted to Islam, it seems as though you've become a closed book towards what might be the truth. It's sad, because I had secretly hoped to one day have some conversation about it all with you, but now it honestly seems (to me) that you are blind in your faith, and refuse to accept the possibility that the Qu'ran might be incorrect. Just as I am willing to accept the possibility that I might be wrong (as I have), so too you must accept that you might also be wrong. If you can't accept this possibility, if there is absolutely nothing at all that can ever dissuade you from believing in Islam, then us conversing about it will be pointless, and there could never be an exchange of ideas, just the dismissal of mine and the pushing of yours.
Last edited by HackOtaku on Mon May 16, 2016 10:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
Watch him respond saying you don't understand Islam and that there is proof everywhere around you still despite you posting response after response explaining very well your position and backing it up very well too.
Also still no response to what I said, and yet he says we don't answer questions?
konr wrote:
greatsage wrote:
Channel GannoK wrote:
Talix Is in a legitimate state of denial of reality, we can all see it, why even bother. We know this
never met any challenges or actually answered any questions posed to you
konr wrote:
Keep lying bud, it's fine. Have you told your partner about what a disgusting cunt you've been in your life to other people that didn't deserve it?
Just because there is things we can't explain or grasp (like where does the universe come from and how is it supposed to be finite/infinite? If it has an end, where is the universe itself located? If it's infinite.. how can something be infinite?) I won't try to imagine a god or anything along those lines. Yes it kinda sucks to be very small and not being able to know answers to this, but that is just reality
All times are GMT - 6 Hours Goto page Previous1, 2, 3, 4Next
Page 3 of 4
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Reputation: 13
Reputation: 129
Reputation: 126
Reputation: 81
